I second Dr Sheikh on his thoughts and observations. Public sector universities suffer from massive inefficiencies also. The private set up at CASE is producing as good results as any at a fractional cost of public sector.
-Iftekhar
--- In pakgrid@yahoogroups.com, Qasim Sheikh <qs358@...> wrote:
>
> There are a lot of subtle issues here.  Upto a certain level like high school, education for sure is state's responsibility and it is up to citizen's to decide this mandatory level of education.  Beyond that level there certainly is a role for private, for profit business of education.  State has the responsibility to provide and enforce rules and regulations for education industry.  In parallel to education industry, state has the responsibility to ensure access to higher education to youth who can not pay for this education.  And for sure R&D in academia is not a viable for profit proposition and state has to play its role.  This becomes a very emotional issue.  Here are some questions that are very difficult to answer:
>
> 1. Â Â Â What is the direct cost per year for an undergraduate degree in IT or Business and Economics related subjects at universities like FAST, MAJU, F.C. College etc.
> Â Â Â Â Â Answer: Â Â Roughly Rs 130k to 165K Â (per year)
>
> 2. Â Â Â Â Â What is the direct cost per year for an undergraduate degree in IT or Business and Economics related subjects at universities like UET, NUST, etc.
>
>      Answer:   Very difficult to answer;  Entities like management of Universities and HEC do not like to answer this question.  My personal estimate is between Rs.200k to 300k per year.  This does not include equivalent cost of capital that was invested in infrastructure like land, buildings etc that were given by the people of Pakistan to these universities.  I would be very happy to get more accurate numbers.  I am not talking about tuition and fee charged to students.  I am talking about the funds received by the university per student per year from whatever source, parents, HEC, MOST, Donors etc.  Â
>
> 3. Â Â Â If my estimates are reasonable what are universities like UET, NUST providing to students and the country that FAST, MAJU, F.C, College are not.?
>
> Â Â Â Â Â Answer: Â I have observed most of these universities quite closely and my answer is that private universities are doing a very good job.
>
> 4. Â Â Â If my numbers and observations above are reasonably correct then is it better for Pakistan that government should "outsource" undergraduate education to these private universities and pay these universities for students who can not afford to pay?
>
> A few more data points: MAJU is offering undergraduate Mechanical Engineering degree at roughly the same cost as its IT degrees.  FAST at one point had a plan to start an undergraduate degree in civil engineering.  I am not sure about their current status.  F. C. College is offering graduate degree in Biotechnology at roughly the same price.
> Â
> With Regards
> Qasim
>
> 92 300 8540838 (mob)
> pk.linkedin.com/pub/qasim-sheikh/0/250/712
>
>
> >________________________________
> > From: Nasrullah Khan Kalair <nasrullahk@...>
> >To: pakgrid@yahoogroups.com
> >Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2012 1:59 PM
> >Subject: [pakgrid] Business on Basic Needs and human rights
> >
> >
> >Â
> >Dear Saqib Ilyas & Pakgrid Readers
> >Students are not customers they are future custodians of our Sovereignty. Of course, it is responsibility of parents, teachers and state to equip students with with necessary skills to perform their job well. If we do business with students today then they will sell us all for a good offer. To do business on basic human needs rather rights is the evil business. Saying customers to students is like saying customers to your children borne out of wedlock. After destroying public facilities like Hospitals and Education System capitalist politicians have started business of health and education. This is the worst what a leadership can do!
> >
> >
> >Nasrullah Khan Kalair
> >Â
> >
> >
> >
> >--- On Tue, 10/23/12, Saqib Ilyas <msaqib@...> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>From: Saqib Ilyas <msaqib@...>
> >>Subject: Re: [pakgrid] Students as Customers
> >>To: pakgrid@yahoogroups.com
> >>Date: Tuesday, October 23, 2012, 12:28 PM
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>Welcome to the club!
> >>As you've noticed, the problem is deeply rooted. Do we realize the significance of anything that we don't earn for? My father paid the fees. Most people's father also picks where they go for education, so it's all going through the motions. Like how I go to bed at night and wash my face in the morning.
> >>But leave that alone, too, becaue to us Pakistanis, everything is a joke, even if we earned it. A short trip out of the house and on to the street or the road will testify in favor of this. People are walking in the middle of the road, driving on the wrong side of Lahore Ring Road and other highways. Children who can barely walk are riding motorbikes. It's a much bigger problem.
> >>You could raise awareness of those who came into your degree program (445000 graduates every year throughout Pakistan, apropos http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Pakistan), but they constitute what percentage of the population (187 million apropos http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Pakistan)? 0.23%. Working with that, we need a lot of luck changing the country!
> >>
> >>
> >>Â
> >>On Sun, Oct 21, 2012 at 9:46 PM, Sulaiman <driving_seat@...> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>Â
> >>>After conducting some teaching sessions related to engineering at a renowned education institute in Pakistan, a thought came to me regarding our education and I would like to share with all Pakistanis giving a factual but not realized concept.
> >>>
> >>>-------------------------------------------------------
> >>>
> >>>Any customer pays cash to get the required services or to fulfill a need! We are certain about what we want when we pay against it, except for EDUCATION. For example, as customer of bread, you see a need of your hunger being satisfied. When we ask someone why your are paying for education, the most common answer is to become something (kuch bannay k liye). This is an alarming situation! Can you imagine yourself paying for something when you do not know what you want to gain? Such is the pattern of all society!
> >>>Our society is lacking vision of what we want to become and where to find our required educational services! Due to which following issues hair raising issues are highlighted:
> >>>
> >>>1. As an engineering teacher, when I asked a student why are you learning to make a drawing. The answer was "To get a good grade!" Then I again asked, AS AN ENGIINEER why are you learning to make a drawing? Only then there were some relevant answers. The problem is we take an admission in a "WELL KNOWN INSTITUTE" to fulfill our ego and to tell other relatives and friends that we are paying for BRAND. Secondly, our vision is then limited to good grade, when we don't find good teaching services, what do we do? Do we demand that our educational needs are not being satisfied, i.e. we are not a happy customer? Do we leave the institute to get these services in a "LOW PROFILE INSTITUTE", where your educational needs will be BETTER satisfied? NOT AT ALL! WE GO FOR TUITION! No joking, this I experienced at University Level!
> >>>
> >>>2. Then I also asked what is the function of an engineer? A response was to repair a fault in a plant. I was not surprised to hear because our engineers are not designing product in Pakistan. This clearly shows that we do not know why we are spending huge amounts in EDUCATION. Moreover, the module of engineering design is not present in most of our engineering syllabi.
> >>>
> >>>3. Not only this, we pay as customers for our education and rather we evaluate them we are being evaluated! Students are the most enslaved pupils here because they cannot say anything against a teacher or institute even if he/she is not being provided good teaching service for what he is paying. Because I do anything, my grade will be damaged! Is that what we pay for?
> >>>
> >>>4. Let me explain our grading system through an example. If you are running a factory and you bought a machine to give you required pieces of production per day. After purchasing you found that your new machine is not providing you your targeted number of pieces as falsely claimed, you lose your interest in it and search for a better alternative machine that satisfies your production quantity. Similarly, when the student is not getting for what he wants, his motivation and performance will be low and as a result he gets a BAD GRADE!
> >>>
> >>>As engineers we must get out of thinking to get a job in a multinational and repairing their faults but start real engineering products that fulfill the need of the society. Especially, I request all mechanical engineers because they are the backbone of product design, although few are being produced. There are numerous simple problems to convert into opportunities solve: there are no juicers or blenders being designed, no generators being designed, no Computers and its accessories being designed. The list goes on and on and on... The thing I want to address here is that the market is huge. It's only the people who have to produce.
> >>>
> >>>One thing that may also common to hear, who will compete with CHINA (CHEEN se compete kon karay ga!) You must realize that in order to ship a product to a market it requires transportation which adds to the cost price. If someone is not producing it locally then of course people of that locality will purchase the product at a higher price from abroad! Realizing of lack of interest in this regard, the move their factories towards mass production because the higher the volume of production, the lower the cost per unit labour. That's why the entire world is moving towards automation.
> >>>
> >>>Students (Especially engineering students) must realize that they are CUSTOMERS! Your payment to today is an investment for tomorrow! One invests to get more return and we must think from this angle, i.e. we are paying to achieve our future goals and in return earn more. We must know what they want to achieve (in case of engineering, we must know what we want to design) and to search and get the required service available to fulfill our aims. Setting your aim is the most important criteria before you get your education because this will be important to fulfill your dream. If you are not satisfied with the performance of an institute tell them politely. Even if not improved, you have all the right to get it from some other place and leave that place.
> >>>
> >>>The teachers must also realize that they are the representatives of that organization and they are working to provide the quality of service that the customer (here students) are expecting and help them to fulfill their dreams.
> >>>We need to work out on our visions on urgent basis! Inshallah my thought sharing will improve our goal settings and basic but paramount educational services!
> >>>
> >>>Regards
> >>>Sulaiman Dawood Barry
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>--
> >>Muhammad Saqib Ilyas
> >>PhD Student, Computer Science and Engineering
> >>Lahore University of Management Sciences
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
>
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