Thursday, 1 November 2012

[bs-telecom] Digest Number 1910[9 Attachments]

12 New Messages

Digest #1910
1.1
Job || Multiple IT Roles || Misc by "Jahan Zaib Saleem" zaib616
2
Job || Electrical Engineering Roles || Misc by "Jahan Zaib Saleem" zaib616
3a
Job || Multiple Roles || NUST by "Jahan Zaib Saleem" zaib616
4
Job || Project Manager OFC by "attractive umer" attractive_umer
5.1
5.2
6a
Re: Query || Benefit for telecom engineers by "Khurram Manzoor" zamin_khum
6b
7a
Help || CCNA Dumps by "Aksam Khalid" aksam.khalid
7b
Re: Help || CCNA Dumps by "Rizwan Abbasi" riz_abb7
9
Job || FM (field maintenance) Consultants || China by "naveed manzoor" naveedmanzoorawan

Messages

Wed Oct 31, 2012 9:06 am (PDT) . Posted by:

"Jahan Zaib Saleem" zaib616

http://hr.nust.edu.pk/

* *

*Oracle Developer <http://hr.nust.edu.pk/applyjob.aspx?jid=1106> *

Last Date: 13-Nov-2012

MCS/MIT/BCS (Hons)/equivalent with minimum one (01) year programming
experience in SQL , PL/SQL, Oracle Forms, Oracle Reports and Java web
technologies.

View more..

*Share Point Web Developer <http://hr.nust.edu.pk/applyjob.aspx?jid=1107> *

Last Date: 14-Nov-2012

MCS/MIT or BCS/BIT (4 Years) or Equivalent.

At least 02 years work experience as a SharePoint Developer, in the
analysis, design, hands-on development and delivery of web-based
applications.

Experience in .NET Framework, C#, ASP .NET, XML, XSLT, JavaScript also...
*View more..* <http://hr.nust.edu.pk/applyjob.aspx?jid=1107>

*SharePoint Administrator <http://hr.nust.edu.pk/applyjob.aspx?jid=1108> *

Last Date: 14-Nov-2012

MCS/MIT or BCS/BIT (04) Years or Equivalent.

2 Years work experience as a SharePoint Administrator manages all aspects
of Sharepoint environment, including design, architecture, availability,
reliability, performance, monitoring and security of the portal.

Two years development...
*View more..* <http://hr.nust.edu.pk/applyjob.aspx?jid=1108>

*Assistant Manager (Quality
Assurance)<http://hr.nust.edu.pk/applyjob.aspx?jid=1099>
*

Last Date: 06-Nov-2012

MA English/MBA/BS Engineering from a HEC recognized university with at
least three (03) years staff experience of quality assurance in a
government organization or university. Candidate must possess excellent
presentation, communication and interpersonal skills. Individuals having
excellent...
*View more..* <http://hr.nust.edu.pk/applyjob.aspx?jid=1099>

*Professor - C of E&ME <http://hr.nust.edu.pk/applyjob.aspx?jid=1100> *

Last Date: 18-Nov-2012

• PhD degree in the relevant field recognized by HEC in
consultation with PEC with 15 years teaching/research experience in HEC
recognized university or a postgraduate institution or professional
experience in the relevant field in a...
*View more..* <http://hr.nust.edu.pk/applyjob.aspx?jid=1100>

*Associate Professor - C of E&ME<http://hr.nust.edu.pk/applyjob.aspx?jid=1102>
*

Last Date: 18-Nov-2012

• PhD degree in the relevant field recognized by HEC with 10
years teaching/research experience in a recognized
institution/college/university OR 05 years post-PhD teaching/research
experience in an HEC recognized university...
*View more..* <http://hr.nust.edu.pk/applyjob.aspx?jid=1102>

*Assistant Professor - C of E&ME<http://hr.nust.edu.pk/applyjob.aspx?jid=1103>
*

Last Date: 18-Nov-2012

• PhD in the relevant field from an HEC recognized
university/institution.

No experience required.

OR

• Masters...
*View more..* <http://hr.nust.edu.pk/applyjob.aspx?jid=1103>

*Lecturer - C of E&ME <http://hr.nust.edu.pk/applyjob.aspx?jid=1104> *

Last Date: 18-Nov-2012

First class Master's degree OR equivalent awarded after 18 years of
education in the relevant field with no 3rd division in the academic career
from HEC recognized university/institution. No experience required.

-Engineering Management

-Quality...
*View more..* <http://hr.nust.edu.pk/applyjob.aspx?jid=1104>

*Network Administrator <http://hr.nust.edu.pk/applyjob.aspx?jid=1092> *

Last Date: 04-Nov-2012

BS (Computer Science)/ MCS from an accredited university. 03-04 years of
relevant experience is mandatory &...
*View more..* <http://hr.nust.edu.pk/applyjob.aspx?jid=1092>

*Lab Attendant <http://hr.nust.edu.pk/applyjob.aspx?jid=1097> *

Last Date: 04-Nov-2012

Diploma of Associate Engineering (Computer/IT). One year experience in
Information Technology Support.
*View more..* <http://hr.nust.edu.pk/applyjob.aspx?jid=1097>

*Database Administrator <http://hr.nust.edu.pk/applyjob.aspx?jid=1082> *

Last Date: 31-Oct-2012

MCS/MIT/BIT/BESE/BCS/equivalent From a reputed foreign/local University
with minimum 03 years experience in Oracle/SQL/My SQL Databases. Experts in
Java Web...
*View more..* <http://hr.nust.edu.pk/applyjob.aspx?jid=1082>

*Professor - C of E&ME <http://hr.nust.edu.pk/applyjob.aspx?jid=1084> *

Last Date: 04-Nov-2012

• PhD degree in Control Systems/Communication/Digital Signal
Processing with Electrical Engineering field recognized by HEC in
consultation with PEC with 12 years teaching/research experience in a
recognized...
*View more..* <http://hr.nust.edu.pk/applyjob.aspx?jid=1084>

*Associate Professor - C of E&ME<http://hr.nust.edu.pk/applyjob.aspx?jid=1085>
*

Last Date: 04-Nov-2012

• PhD degree Control Systems/Communication/Digital Signal
Processing with Electrical Engineering fields from HEC recognized
institution with

07 years teaching/research experience in a recognized...
*View more..* <http://hr.nust.edu.pk/applyjob.aspx?jid=1085>

*Assistant Professor - C of E&ME<http://hr.nust.edu.pk/applyjob.aspx?jid=1086>
*

Last Date: 04-Nov-2012

• PhD in Control Systems/Communication/Digital Signal
Processing with Electrical Engineering fields from an HEC recognized
university/institution.

No experience required....
*View more..* <http://hr.nust.edu.pk/applyjob.aspx?jid=1086>

--
Best Regards,,,
*Jahan Zaib Saleem*

http://telecom-life.blogspot.com/
http://zumbeel.net/blog/whatithink/

Wed Oct 31, 2012 10:04 pm (PDT) . Posted by:

"attractive umer" attractive_umer

 Â Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚   Â Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ 
“JOB VACANCY”
CCS Comservice Pakistan need energetic experienced person for
OFC projects. Interested candidate must be fluent in English and local
language.
 
General Purpose
To be responsible for
the overall OFC projects, its planning, direction, coordination, implementation,
execution, control and completion of specific projects ensuring consistency
with company strategy, commitments and goals.
 
Experience: minimum of 4 Years experience in OFC
Survey, Laying, Installation & commissioning.
 
Main Job Tasks and
Responsibilities
* lead the planning and implementation of OFC project
* facilitate the definition of OFC project scope, goals and deliverables
* define OFC project tasks and resource requirements
* develop full scale OFC project plans
* assemble and coordinate OFC project staff
* manage OFC project budget
* manage OFC project resource allocation
* plan and schedule project timelines
* track project deliverables using appropriate tools
* provide direction and support to project team
* quality assurance
* constantly monitor and report on progress of the project to all stakeholders
* present reports defining project progress, problems and solutions
* implement and manage project changes and interventions to achieve project outputs
* project evaluations and assessment of results
* Daily, weekly, monthly meetings with customer to ensure smooth execution
Education and
Experience
* 4 Years university Degree in specific field, qualification in project management or equivalent
* knowledge of both theoretical and practical aspects of project management
* knowledge of project management techniques and tools
* direct work experience in project management capacity
* proven experience in people management
* proven experience in strategic planning
* proven experience in risk management
* proven experience in change management
* proficient in project management software
Key competencies
* critical thinking and problem solving skills
* planning and organizing
* decision-making
* communication skills
* influencing and leading
* delegation
* team work
* negotiation
* conflict management
* adaptability
* stress tolerance
 
 Please send your resume on naveed.ccsi@gmail.com, saqibccslahore@hotmail.com

 
Note: Please mention position you have applied for on email
subject.

Wed Oct 31, 2012 10:24 pm (PDT) . Posted by:

"Uk Engr" uk.engr

Aslam. I often see on group people give advice to telecom/other engineers to acquire career in banking sector, my first question is that why engineer should go in bank for job? Why did he become a engineer? 

Secondly, Sood/Insterest is prohibited in Islam. Please save yourself from sood (any kind, commonly taken from banks (like saving certificates)). Please bro and sisters avoid banking career or insurance company career because their business totally depends on sood/interest. Please read the attached quotations of Quran and decide yourself. 
 

Sood k baare do suggestions nai. Just sood is prohibited from Allah, so prohibited.

Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:30 pm (PDT) . Posted by:

"MB" smurtaza81pk

Banking jobs are stable and who says bank dont need engineers?I agree with Sood part but unfortunately there is no multinational organization/company in this world which gives monthly salary from their bank account to their employee without any Sood/Interest part involved. 

________________________________
From: Uk Engr <uk.engr@yahoo.com>
To: "bs-telecom@yahoogroups.com" <bs-telecom@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2012 4:57 AM
Subject: Re: [bs-telecom] Query || Azad Visa for UAE.

 
Aslam. I often see on group people give advice to telecom/other engineers to acquire career in banking sector, my first question is that why engineer should go in bank for job? Why did he become a engineer? 

Secondly, Sood/Insterest is prohibited in Islam. Please save yourself from sood (any kind, commonly taken from banks (like saving certificates)). Please bro and sisters avoid banking career or insurance company career because their business totally depends on sood/interest. Please read the attached quotations of Quran and decide yourself. 

Sood k baare do suggestions nai. Just sood is prohibited from Allah, so prohibited.

Wed Oct 31, 2012 10:53 pm (PDT) . Posted by:

"Khurram Manzoor" zamin_khum

Assalamualikum,
 
To all freshers.

1-Pray to Allah and make your self comfortable for what ever you are getting in Pakistan , Especially in current scenario.
2-Apply to all Fields of Telecommunication and dont make your options limited.
3-Some thing is better then nothing. Grab a job and then try further and if you are not lucky to have job go for tutions  and do Cisco/MS certifications atleast Associate level.
4-You never know when you  will get a chance so have patience.
5-Try , try and keep on trying as no one will get you a Job if you are not willing for it. 
6- 95% of Pakistanis dont have any reference to find job and 90% dont have money to go abroad (for study or azad visas etc) so dont worry we all are here.

Frustration is only because we dont believe in ALLAH and we believe in Perchi system, believe me from my batch of Graduation 3.5 years before every person who got job on his own is far more happy then those who were always finding references, you eventually become a cry baby and you cant have success on shoulders of other.

Khurram Manzoor

________________________________
From: Ali Ahmed <aliahmedpatriot@yahoo.com> 
To: bs-telecom@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, 30 October 2012, 19:17
Subject: Re: [bs-telecom] Query || Benefit for telecom engineers


 
Dear zafar brother .i am very impressed from your views ....i am graduated one year before and on the next day after my graduation ,I was in market....I have done three major internships and with the same passion Â  as u you had i am doing work and getting experience and hoping for the best...i am very satisfied that i m not free and my learning process is in progress

--- On Sat, 10/27/12, Xafar <rajupaki1987@yahoo.com> wrote:

>From: Xafar <rajupaki1987@yahoo.com>
>Subject: Re: [bs-telecom] Query || Benefit for telecom engineers
>To: "bs-telecom@yahoogroups.com" <bs-telecom@yahoogroups.com>
>Date: Saturday,
October 27, 2012, 6:51 PM
>
>
> 
>You are frustrated, I was frustrated, when I graduated 3 years back from a very reputed university holding the the same telecom degree. I did't have many contacts nor many references. Most of my friends were themselves looking for jobs so i couldn't ask them to do something for me. My first job offered me a 9k salary and with no other options at that time i accepted it happily. The job title was Network support engineer. During that Job i saved money and completed my CCNA and decided to make my carrier in networks. After 9 months i switched to a network solution provider company on the basis of my experience in networks and CCNA certification. The salary was just few thousand more than the previous job but salary was never my priority. I did several International and national projects with that company, got various international training which i could only dream of. 
>
>
>One thing i must mention and i am proud over it is that i never asked anyone to give me Job. I always applied online and got the call. So don't be disappointed if you don't have reference. One thing is important and that is you must know how to present your resume. Don't add immature things like hobbies interest etc. 
>
>
>Today after 3 years i am Technical Team Lead in a reputed company with a good salary.
>
>
>Remember that when Life gives you Lemon, make a lemonade. 
>
>
>Regards,
>Zafar Ahmed. 
>
>
>
>
>________________________________
> From: Syed Adnan <joinsyedadnan@yahoo.com>
>To: bs-telecom@yahoogroups.com
>Sent: Wednesday, 24 October 2012, 18:59
>Subject: [bs-telecom] Query || Benefit for telecom engineers
>
>
> 
>Aslam o alaikum everyone, hope that u r all in gud health. I am quite disappointed after knowing the reality of telecom job market and thinks keep pinching my mind so i decided to ask here from telecom fellows, SENIORS ESPECIALLY ( WHO ARE WORKING IN TELECOM INDUSTRY FOR MORE THAN 1 YEAR).
>I have noticed that since from uni time Engineers get full time RAGRA thinking of a gud career but what they actually find after degree is again a RAGRA of i dont know how many years.
>So whats the benefit out of it????????????????????does this tough time, in subcons or fresher jobs paying 10k, counts any where?? i mean management and other non technical/non-telecom jobs are quite easy and well paying off, so What if 1 gets a management/administrative(non field) kind of job in some organisation that is pretty easy and gets u to managerial level position within 5 years???? what engineers get after this bull shit RAGRA for the whole of their life time???????????????????????????
>
>

Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:51 pm (PDT) . Posted by:

"Rao Kashif" raokashif47

Assalamualikum
 Â Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚ Ã‚  Khurram Manzoor bhai i agree with all ur opinion . We should not go after references . i did undergraduate  in BS Telecommunication and now i am completing my Master in Satellite commuunication with my own publications, i will come from china after few months. what u think that in which types of jobs i should focus and apply ?

Rao Kashif
Ph no. +8613851424413
College of Astronautics
Nanjing University Of Aeronautics & Astronautics (NUAA) ,China

________________________________
From: Khurram Manzoor <zamin_khum@yahoo.com>
To: "bs-telecom@yahoogroups.com" <bs-telecom@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, 31 October 2012 6:59 PM
Subject: Re: [bs-telecom] Query || Benefit for telecom engineers

 
Assalamualikum,

To all freshers.

1-Pray to Allah and make your self comfortable for what ever you are getting in Pakistan , Especially in current scenario.
2-Apply to all Fields of Telecommunication and dont make your options limited.
3-Some thing is better then nothing. Grab a job and then try further and if you are not lucky to have job go for tutions  and do Cisco/MS certifications atleast Associate level.
4-You never know when you  will get a chance so have patience.
5-Try , try and keep on trying as no one will get you a Job if you are not willing for it. 
6- 95% of Pakistanis dont have any reference to find job and 90% dont have money to go abroad (for study or azad visas etc) so dont worry we all are here.

Frustration is only because we dont believe in ALLAH and we believe in Perchi system, believe me from my batch of Graduation 3.5 years before every person who got job on his own is far more happy then those who were always finding references, you eventually become a cry baby and you cant have success on shoulders of other.

Khurram Manzoor

________________________________
From: Ali Ahmed <aliahmedpatriot@yahoo.com> 
To: bs-telecom@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, 30 October 2012, 19:17
Subject: Re: [bs-telecom] Query || Benefit for telecom engineers

 
Dear zafar brother .i am very impressed from your views ....i am graduated one year before and on the next day after my graduation ,I was in market....I have done three major internships and with the same passion Â  as u you had i am doing work and getting experience and hoping for the best...i am very satisfied that i m not free and my learning process is in progress
--- On Sat, 10/27/12, Xafar <rajupaki1987@yahoo.com> wrote:

>From: Xafar <rajupaki1987@yahoo.com>
>Subject: Re: [bs-telecom] Query || Benefit for telecom engineers
>To: "bs-telecom@yahoogroups.com" <bs-telecom@yahoogroups.com>
>Date: Saturday, October 27, 2012, 6:51 PM
>
>
> 
>You are frustrated, I was frustrated, when I graduated 3 years back from a very reputed university holding the the same telecom degree. I did't have many contacts nor many references. Most of my friends were themselves looking for jobs so i couldn't ask them to do something for me. My first job offered me a 9k salary and with no other options at that time i accepted it happily. The job title was Network support engineer. During that Job i saved money and completed my CCNA and decided to make my carrier in networks. After 9 months i switched to a network solution provider company on the basis of my experience in networks and CCNA certification. The salary was just few thousand more than the previous job but salary was never my priority. I did several International and national projects with that company, got various international training which i could only dream of. 
>
>
>One thing i must mention and i am proud over it is that i never asked anyone to give me Job. I always applied online and got the call. So don't be disappointed if you don't have reference. One thing is important and that is you must know how to present your resume. Don't add immature things like hobbies interest etc. 
>
>
>Today after 3 years i am Technical Team Lead in a reputed company with a good salary.
>
>
>Remember that when Life gives you Lemon, make a lemonade. 
>
>
>Regards,
>Zafar Ahmed. 
>
>
>
>________________________________
>From: Syed Adnan <joinsyedadnan@yahoo.com>
>To: bs-telecom@yahoogroups.com
>Sent: Wednesday, 24 October 2012, 18:59
>Subject: [bs-telecom] Query || Benefit for telecom engineers
>
> 
>Aslam o alaikum everyone, hope that u r all in gud health. I am quite disappointed after knowing the reality of telecom job market and thinks keep pinching my mind so i decided to ask here from telecom fellows, SENIORS ESPECIALLY ( WHO ARE WORKING IN TELECOM INDUSTRY FOR MORE THAN 1 YEAR).
>I have noticed that since from uni time Engineers get full time RAGRA thinking of a gud career but what they actually find after degree is again a RAGRA of i dont know how many years.
>So whats the benefit out of it????????????????????does this tough time, in subcons or fresher jobs paying 10k, counts any where?? i mean management and other non technical/non-telecom jobs are quite easy and well paying off, so What if 1 gets a management/administrative(non field) kind of job in some organisation that is pretty easy and gets u to managerial level position within 5 years???? what engineers get after this bull shit RAGRA for the whole of their life time???????????????????????????

Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:15 pm (PDT) . Posted by:

"Aksam Khalid" aksam.khalid

Hi

Can anyone please share the latest CCNA dumps or link for the dumps???

BR
Aksam Khalid

Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:34 pm (PDT) . Posted by:

"Rizwan Abbasi" riz_abb7

AOA,
Go to examcollection.com you'll find the latest dumps .

Regards,

Rizwan Nazir Abbasi.
Mobile no( UAE) 0552975273/ (PAK) 03225133967

To: bs-telecom@yahoogroups.com
From: aksam.khalid@gmail.com
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 16:05:30 +0000
Subject: [bs-telecom] Help || CCNA Dumps

Hi

Can anyone please share the latest CCNA dumps or link for the dumps???

BR

Aksam Khalid

Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:23 pm (PDT) . Posted by:

"Rao Kashif" raokashif47


AOA
 I want to know that what is the most right way to apply for the jobs in UAE / Saudia Arabia ? R there any good websites or job consultants ?

Rao Kashif

College of Astronautics
Nanjing University Of Aeronautics & Astronautics (NUAA) ,China

Thu Nov 1, 2012 12:01 am (PDT) . Posted by:

"naveed manzoor" naveedmanzoorawan

Forward as received. 

----- Forwarded Message -----
From: "chloe.parmenter@tanint.com" <chloe.parmenter@tanint.com>
To: chloe.parmenter@tanint.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2012 7:03 PM
Subject: FM Consultant R'qd China


You are receiving this e-mail because I have performed a key-word search of the Tangent International, candidate database, in an attempt to capture a relevant audience for this mail shoot. If this does not apply to you then please accept my apologies and delete this e-mail or forward to a potentially interested party.

Tangent is currently seeking a number of FM (field maintenance) Consultants to work in China for a 6 month extendable contract.

Responsibilities:
Investigate cost structure in FM(Field Maintenance) of Managed Service project.
Work out cost reduction strategies, methodology's and regulation / tools ect.
Cost reduction measurement deployment and validation in key projects

Requirements for consultant:
Bachelor degree or above
Telecommunication or consulting background
At least 10 - 15 years relative experience
Experience in Telecom company or operator is preferred
High level communication skills and project management capabilities

Location - China

Duration - 6 months extendable

Salary - To be discussed

If interested in this position please send your CV to this email address for an immediate response.

Kind regards,
Chloe Parmenter
Resourcer
Tangent International
+44 (0)1277 635 822 DD
+44 (0)7852 601591 Mobile
+44 (0)1277 633 133 FAX
Chloe.Parmenter@tanint.com
http://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=93860821&locale=en_US&trk=tab_pro
http://www.tanint.com

******PLEASE NOTE THAT TANGENT INTERNATIONAL WILL NOT BE ABLE TO REPRESENT YOU IF YOU ARE CURRENTLY WORKING FOR THE ORGANISATION WE ARE RECRUITING FOR. IF YOUR CONTRACT IS COMING TO AN END AND YOU ARE NOT BEING EXTENDED WE MAY BE ABLE TO REPRESENT YOU.******

Disclaimer

This email and any attachments are intended solely for the addressee/s and may contain privileged or confidential information. All information or opinions expressed in this email and any attachments are those of the author and are not necessarily those of Tangent International. Neither Tangent International Group Plc, nor any of its controlled entities, accepts any responsibility for the accuracy or completeness of this message or liability for any damage or breach of confidentiality arising from the receipt or use of messages sent from its networks. The Internet and public networks can be inherently insecure and you should therefore rely on your own precautions against viruses and other defects. If you received this email in error, please advise the sender and immediately delete it and any attachments from your system.

Tangent International Limited (TIL) and Tangent International Group Plc (TIG) are registered in England and Wales both with a Registered Office Address of:
Swan House, 11 Woodbrook Crescent, Billericay, Essex, UK CM12 0EQ.
Registration Numbers are TIL #1552284, TIG #2110920.
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